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The United States of Earth
#11
I agree that we would be better off identifying first as human beings, rather than limiting ourselves with tribalism.

But open borders seems like it would be a bad idea - certainly many people from poorer countries would move to richer ones, which would then be stressed as far as infrastructure and law enforcement, as well as basic resources.

I prefer the idea of helping poorer nations/people improve their lives where they are.
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#12
Only after every single person on the planet is safe and secure in all of their needs can any thought be given to an idea like opening the borders.  After everyone has enough food for today and they are secure in the knowledge that tomorrow they will have food, and the next day.  The same for their housing, medical care, education, etc.  Only after every person feels safe to practice their religion.  Only after they are free to say what they want, express their sexuality as they desire.  

All the things we take for granted and more.   After all these things come to pass would we avoid the complete and total anarchy that would follow simply opening borders, allowing mass migration.
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."   George Orwell    
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#13
(08-31-2017, 05:07 PM)jafs3 Wrote: I agree that we would be better off identifying first as human beings, rather than limiting ourselves with tribalism.

But open borders seems like it would be a bad idea - certainly many people from poorer countries would move to richer ones, which would then be stressed as far as infrastructure and law enforcement, as well as basic resources.

I prefer the idea of helping poorer nations/people improve their lives where they are.

It's a process.  I'm not advocating for immediate open borders.  I'm advocating for international policies that, over time, would make borders obsolete.  One world.  One people. States' rights.  No more China first.  No more Russia first.  No more America first.  Earth first.
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#14
(08-31-2017, 05:47 PM)iamme2 Wrote: Only after every single person on the planet is safe and secure in all of their needs can any thought be given to an idea like opening the borders.  After everyone has enough food for today and they are secure in the knowledge that tomorrow they will have food, and the next day.  The same for their housing, medical care, education, etc.  Only after every person feels safe to practice their religion.  Only after they are free to say what they want, express their sexuality as they desire.  

All the things we take for granted and more.   After all these things come to pass would we avoid the complete and total anarchy that would follow simply opening borders, allowing mass migration.

I never suggested 'simply opening borders.'  I'm stating that centuries of tribalism have done nothing to alleviate the need for borders.  If true equality will ever reign throughout the world, that needs to change.  In the somewhat distant future, it is my hope that borders are a thing of the past.
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#15
(08-31-2017, 08:15 PM)rockchalker52 Wrote: I never suggested 'simply opening borders.'  I'm stating that centuries of tribalism have done nothing to alleviate the need for borders.  If true equality will ever reign throughout the world, that needs to change.  In the somewhat distant future, it is my hope that borders are a thing of the past.

I don't mind a little pie in the sky dreaming.  "Cause that's what this is.  How about we simply set as our goal the elimination of the 7 deadly sins.  No pride.  No greed.  No lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, sloth.  Eliminate those and the need for tribalism goes away as does the need/desire  for borders.
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."   George Orwell    
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#16
(08-31-2017, 08:10 PM)rockchalker52 Wrote: It's a process.  I'm not advocating for immediate open borders.  I'm advocating for international policies that, over time, would make borders obsolete.  One world.  One people. States' rights.  No more China first.  No more Russia first.  No more America first.  Earth first.

I see.

It's a nice ideal, and probably in some ways necessary if we're to avoid destroying ourselves as a species.  I don't quite understand the "states' rights" part yet.
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#17
@Iamme - Ya know, I've never seen much wrong with lusting, and occasionally a little gluttony.  Envy isn't all that horrible, either, if you use it as a tool for motivation.  

@jafs - 'States Rights' is just a term I plucked to demonstrate how the rule of law might apply without borders.  If I were to move to Missouri, for example, (just shoot me instead) I'd be subject to their statutes.  Without restrictive borders, if I moved to, say, Kenya, I'd be subject to their country's laws, but I'd still be able to come & go as I please, work there, vote there to choose its leadership just as if I had my primary residence in Kansas and voted for its governor, etc.  

With a borderless world, people could move to different "states" to pursue the life they wish to live anywhere on the planet.
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#18
Thanks for the clarification.
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#19
(09-01-2017, 10:05 AM)rockchalker52 Wrote: @Iamme - Ya know, I've never seen much wrong with lusting, and occasionally a little gluttony.  Envy isn't all that horrible, either, if you use it as a tool for motivation.  

@jafs - 'States Rights' is just a term I plucked to demonstrate how the rule of law might apply without borders.  If I were to move to Missouri, for example, (just shoot me instead) I'd be subject to their statutes.  Without restrictive borders, if I moved to, say, Kenya, I'd be subject to their country's laws, but I'd still be able to come & go as I please, work there, vote there to choose its leadership just as if I had my primary residence in Kansas and voted for its governor, etc.  

With a borderless world, people could move to different "states" to pursue the life they wish to live anywhere on the planet.

So you'd be able to move to Kenya and vote for the leaders there.  Basically, a bunch of outsiders could come in and change centuries of laws and traditions.  Doesn't sound very respectful to me.  

When I look at predicting future behavior, I look at past behavior.  I think it's a key predictor.  Suppose 10 million Arabs move into what is today Israel.  Given Jews' history both in the middle east and Europe, do you think the Arabs will respect those currently in Israel or will Jewish historical sites be smashed to bits.  

And not to pick on Arabs, but look at our own history.  We Europeans came to this continent seeking religious freedom, freedom from tyranny, etc.  And we set up this wonderful democracy we now have.  We are wealthy beyond the dreams of our forefathers.  But do you really think the Native Americans believe that narrative?   Did we come here respecting their laws, their culture, their history?  I think not.  

Sorry to say this, but the only way I see this borderless world working is when very, very few actually want to cross the borders.  And that can only be accomplished by an even distribution of wealth and resources.  And since we are the ones at the very top of that wealth distribution ladder, what you're advocating is a massive redistribution at our expense.  You first.    Big Grin

But I will tell you a real story.  When my son was little and we were living in that very diverse community out west, he took no notice of the race of the other children.  Precisely because race isn't real.  It's a made up thing.  He could tell the difference between a puppy dog and a kitty cat.  He could tell the difference between boys and girls.  That's real.  But it took him years to even realize that his parents were of two different races.  He knew I was daddy and my wife was mommy.  But race?  That would come much later.
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."   George Orwell    
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#20
Speaking of voting - if there are no borders then there are no states so you can vote in every election... but... who would run the elections and... other questions... but I have to let the dog in. And fill his water bowl. And feed him.
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